Where You're Going

Terry Tucker:

John, thanks for having me on. I’m really looking forward to talking with you today.

John Liddle:

I’m really impressed with your bio. As I was mentioning to people before we introduced you, your journey is incredibly diverse, spanning from being an NCAA basketball player to working in the corporate offices of Wendy’s, transitioning into police work, and now your role in motivating, inspiring, and showing love to people. I’m curious, is there a common thread that runs through this multifaceted resume of yours?

Terry Tucker:

I believe that the foundation of it all, which still holds true to this day, is rooted in our family and the values our parents instilled in us. My parents taught my brothers and me the importance of family, love, care, and support for one another. I often describe their parenting style as nothing short of exceptional. For instance, if I had a game scheduled for a particular night at a specific time, and my brother had a practice at the exact same time elsewhere, my parents would split up to ensure both of us received support. I have two brothers, and all of us pursued college athletics. One of my brothers even got drafted by the Cleveland Cavaliers in the National Basketball Association. Sports always played a central role in our family, and my parents provided us with every opportunity to succeed, all while emphasizing that academics took precedence. They made it clear that maintaining at least a C average was a non-negotiable requirement, regardless of our athletic abilities. So, in answer to your question, the values our parents instilled in us from an early age have continued to guide us through our adult lives.

John Liddle:

That’s incredible, Terry. By the way, everyone, you can’t see it here, but Terry is an absolute giant at six foot eight, while I’m just six foot one. So, you know, he’s got a bit of a height advantage over me, which can be a tad intimidating, but it’s all in good fun. Now, speaking of your career right after college, it seems like family played a significant role even in those early job decisions. Could you tell us more about that pivotal moment in your career and how it impacted your family?

Terry Tucker:

When you examine my resume, it might seem like a chaotic mix of experiences, almost as if a super ball went off in a room. However, the backstory behind it all is rooted in my unwavering belief that my purpose was destined for law enforcement. My paternal grandfather, who served as a Chicago police officer from 1924 to 1954, played a significant role in shaping this calling. He patrolled the streets of Chicago during the prohibition era and the Great Depression, a time when notorious gangsters like Al Capone wreaked havoc. During his service, he even experienced being shot in the line of duty, though fortunately, it wasn’t a grave injury. My father, just an infant at the time, vividly remembered the night when officers knocked on their door and took him to see his injured father. These stories left a lasting impression on my dad. When I expressed my strong desire to follow in Papa George’s footsteps, my dad had a different vision for me. He insisted that I attend college, major in business, graduate, get married, secure a good job, and have a family with 2.4 kids—basically, the life he envisioned for me. It wasn’t the life I believed was my true calling. After college, faced with the harsh reality that both my father and grandmother were battling cancer, I had a tough choice to make. I could have rebelled and pursued my own path or, out of love and respect for my dad, I chose to honor his wishes and entered the world of business. I often joke that I did what any dutiful son would do: I waited until my father passed away, and then I wholeheartedly pursued my lifelong dream of joining law enforcement. I became a rookie police officer at the age of thirty-seven, which, by most standards, is considered quite late to start such a career. I can certainly attest that I consumed a lot more Tylenol during police academy training than my younger counterparts!

John Liddle:

Well, we can imagine what the downside of that was, but what’s the upside of being a little bit older as you entered the force?

Terry Tucker:

Yeah. I had some life experience. And and I think that was incredibly important. I was able to talk to people. And and even now, I know law enforcement isn’t a very desirable career, today, but every now and then somebody to reach out and say, you know, what do you recommend I do to to be successful in that job? And always tell them, put your devices down. Go out on the street and talk to the homeless guy go out to the penthouse and talk to that guy because if you can talk to people, you can be successful as a cop. If if you have a hard time asking questions and and trying to get to the root cause because in law enforcement, everybody lies to you. They always want you to believe their stories so that you take the other person at jail, but if you can’t talk to people, you’re gonna be incredibly frustrated in that line of work.

John Liddle:

But the point is, I think Terry is connection. If you want to have an impact in that that job, it’s about connection in some way.

Terry Tucker:

Absolutely, and that’s something that stuck with me throughout my law enforcement career. I would often find myself pulling someone over for running a red light or responding to a domestic disturbance call on their porch. For me, it might have been the third traffic stop of the day, but for them, it could be the most frightening thing that happened all year. While safety was paramount, it was crucial to recognize the inherent authority that came with the uniform and treat people with respect. If you were skilled at your job, you could often turn “no” into “yes” and build positive connections. Conversely, some officers who weren’t as adept could turn “yes” people into “no” people.Building that connection, especially with younger individuals and kids, was vital. I recall starting my basketball journey during the summers in the Police Athletic League, competing against much older and more skilled players. It was a tremendous opportunity to improve my game by facing tougher competition.

John Liddle:

Oh, no doubt about that. You made a huge impact as well as a SWAT team hostage negotiator. What got you interested in that? Was it just natural for you? How does that happen?

Terry Tucker:

Certainly, it’s not every day your next-door neighbor happens to be a SWAT negotiator. In most law enforcement agencies, the SWAT team consists of highly trained and well-equipped officers, often considered the cream of the crop. So, naturally, I wanted to be a part of the best. When an opportunity arose to join the negotiating team, let me provide a bit of context for those unfamiliar with SWAT setup. Typically, you have the tactical teams, those men and women with all the high-tech gadgets and firearms, and then there are negotiators. We used to share this playful jest that if we did our job right, the tactical team wouldn’t need to use any of their fancy gear. That’s what we aimed for.So, when a spot opened up for negotiators, I submitted my application. The process involved meeting certain physical fitness requirements, including running a mile, doing push-ups and sit-ups. I also had to undergo psychological evaluations, take psychological exams, meet with the command staff, and, finally, meet the current negotiators. It was a rigorous evaluation, and the entire team had to give their approval. If even one person on the team had reservations, you wouldn’t make it. Fortunately, I went through the process successfully, received unanimous approval, and became part of the team.This marked a significant turning point in my career. By this time, I had around five or six years of experience as a police officer, but I’ll never forget my very first experience negotiating in a scenario-based setting. We practiced these scenarios extensively, working closely with psychologists. The initial scenario was relatively straightforward: someone had taken a hostage, and there was a hostage and a hostage-taker behind a locked door. During the entire exercise, I focused my attention on talking to the hostage. However, during the debrief, I received valuable feedback: I needed to understand that my primary focus should be on the person who had taken the hostage, not just the hostage. It was a pivotal moment that made me realize I had much to learn in the realm of negotiation.

John Liddle:

So what did you learn along the way about what it takes to be a great hostage negotiator?

Terry Tucker:

One of the fundamental aspects to grasp as a negotiator is that you’re tasked with building a relationship with a complete stranger, someone you’ve never met before in your life. In any relationship, be it between parent and child, husband and wife, or boss and subordinate, trust is the overarching theme. They have to trust you. An interesting aspect that might surprise some is that we never resorted to lies when dealing with hostage-takers or individuals in barricaded situations. Often, they would make demands like, “I’ll put the gun down, but you have to promise I won’t go to jail.” In response, we had to be honest and say, “I’m sorry, but when you come out, you will be going to jail.” Afterward, we would attempt to steer the conversation towards more positive subjects. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn’t. Trust was the core element we aimed to establish. Another critical aspect I recall is a formula they gave us when we first started as negotiators, and I’ll do my best to recall it: 73855. This formula pertained to how we communicate. Here’s what it stood for: 7% of our communication relied on the words we used, 38% was influenced by the tone of voice we employed alongside those words, and a whopping 55% was determined by our body language and facial expressions. Remarkably, as a police officer, nearly all our interactions were face-to-face with other individuals. In those situations, visual cues were invaluable. If someone clenched their fists, it might indicate a potential conflict, or if they appeared nervous and kept looking around, they might be contemplating fleeing. These cues allowed us to respond accordingly, whether it involved using restraints, sitting them down, or placing them in a vehicle. However, as negotiators, we lacked this visual advantage. I couldn’t see someone’s facial expressions or body language. Instead, we had to rely on what people said, what they didn’t say, and how they said it. It required us to be astute listeners. I’d like to conclude by emphasizing the significance of listening. In our lives, we often think we’re listening, but in reality, we’re often listening to respond rather than to understand. We might be thinking, “Hurry up, John, say what you’re going to say because I want to get my two cents in.” This is responding rather than truly understanding. Instead, imagine saying, “John, I understand what you’re saying. I may agree or disagree, but help me understand your perspective.” This approach fosters genuine dialogue, conversation, and meaningful interaction as human beings. When you listen in this way, you can learn far more than when you’re merely eager to respond.

John Liddle:

Listening to understand, was that natural for you? Or once you figured that out, did that help other relationships in your life? A lot of our lives are spent just trying to navigate relationships and use the right words and the right emotions and also the right body language.

Terry Tucker:

Absolutely, I think that being a good police officer, in general, requires curiosity. You have to be like, “They said that. What does that really mean?” This kind of curiosity can also make you a good negotiator. You might realize, “Oops, I messed up there. Okay, let’s address this.” Or you could delve deeper by saying, “Hold on, you mentioned this. Can you explain what it means to you?” We often steered clear of asking “why” questions since they can come across as accusatory. Instead, we preferred using “how” and “what” questions because they encouraged more open communication.I had all these techniques and strategies, but when I went home to my daughter, they often went right out the window because emotions came into play. It was like, “Yes, I know how to handle this situation,” but my daughter was pushing my buttons, and I might do something impulsive or raise my voice. Dealing with someone you have an emotional connection with, like your family, is quite different from dealing with a stranger. Despite knowing what to do, the emotional aspect makes it much more challenging.

John Liddle:

Yeah. I’m gonna try that with my kids. But what, an incredible journey for you, and, obviously, you learned a lot through all that. The but that sets us up to get a feeling of what kind of interesting guy, that you are. It’s expanded as your life’s mission has continued, on as well, but a big part of your story now is a a battle with a very rare form of cancer that’s still ongoing. In fact, I asked about scheduling this interview for last week. You had treatments going on, and this is not the first year that that’s been the case. It’s been more than a decade now. Take us through the cancer journey.

Terry Tucker:

In 2012, I was running a school security consulting business and coaching girls’ high school basketball in Houston. At one point, I noticed an issue with my foot – a callus had broken open on the bottom, just below my third toe. Initially, I didn’t think much of it, considering the constant time I spent on my feet as a coach. But as it didn’t heal after a few weeks, I consulted a friend who happened to be a podiatrist. He took an x-ray, which revealed what he thought was a cyst. He performed a straightforward surgery to remove it, showing me a small gelatin sack with some white matter inside. There were no dark spots, no blood – nothing that raised any concerns for either of us. However, he sent it off to pathology for further examination. Two weeks later, I received a dreaded phone call from him. He struggled to explain the situation, which only heightened my fear. Finally, he got to the point: “Terry, in my 25 years as a doctor, I’ve never seen this form of cancer. You have a rare form of melanoma.” Most people associate melanoma with sun exposure and skin pigmentation issues, but this had nothing to do with sun exposure. He recommended that I go to the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston for treatment. Following his advice, I underwent surgery to remove the tumor on the bottom of my foot, a procedure that also involved removing all the lymph nodes in my groin. To close the wound on my foot, I had to undergo a skin graft. Unfortunately, at the time, melanoma was seen as a near-death sentence. The options were limited, mainly centered around surgery to remove the cancer. I was told, “We’ll try to buy you more time.” This involved a weekly injection of a drug called Interferon, which, as we discussed earlier, gave me severe flu-like symptoms for 2 to 3 days after each injection. I endured this regimen for nearly five years. Imagine having the flu every week for five years; it was incredibly challenging. Ultimately, Interferon became too toxic for my body, and I ended up in the intensive care unit with a dangerously high body temperature of 108 degrees. I had to discontinue the treatment, and almost immediately, the cancer returned in the same spot on my foot. This led to the amputation of my left foot in 2018. In 2019, the cancer progressed up my leg, necessitating more surgeries. Then, in 2020, an undiagnosed tumor in my ankle area grew large enough to fracture my tibia (shinbone). In the midst of a pandemic, my only option was to have my left leg amputated above the knee. During this time, I also discovered tumors in my lungs, which, as you mentioned, I’ve been receiving treatment for over the last three years.

John Liddle:

Wow. It just incredible. And, you know, for some people, they’re hearing, you know, bad break after bad break and no no doubt. This is not optimal. Right? We could also look at it as, oh my gosh, you were maybe 2 years, and now you’re 11 years out. So let’s start there. Why are you still alive today that you feel?

Terry Tucker:

God’s grace in in all honesty. When I look back, I remember being told that I might have just two years to live, and if I was lucky, perhaps five. Yet, I’m here today, defying the odds, having endured a foot amputation, a leg amputation, and the presence of tumors in my lungs. Let me share a particularly striking moment that highlights the miraculous nature of my experience. About eight months after my leg amputation, my oncologist showed me the results of my CAT scan. Now, I have no medical background, so I couldn’t read the scan, but even to an untrained eye, it was evident that something was terribly wrong. There were substantial tumors in both my lungs, and the scans revealed fluid surrounding the pleural spaces on the outer portions of my lungs. I turned to my oncologist in astonishment and asked, “How on earth am I still alive?” He couldn’t help but smile as he shook his head and replied, “I don’t know, because you really shouldn’t be.” For me, this was a clear sign that God had more in store for me. I’ve come to understand that the when and how of my passing is beyond my control, a matter far above my “pay grade,” as they say. Rather than dwelling on that, I’ve learned to focus on the gift of life. During those five years of enduring the challenges of interferon treatment, I often felt like there were two categories of people: those who were genuinely living and those who were merely not dying. At times, I found myself in the latter category. I reached a point where I genuinely prayed for release from my constant suffering, feeling that I contributed nothing positive to the world. However, God didn’t answer that prayer with my departure from this world. Instead, He granted me the strength and courage to shift my focus to the present. I learned to concern myself only with today, leaving tomorrow’s worries behind. Some days, achieving victory meant something as seemingly simple as getting out of bed and walking to the couch, where I’d spend the rest of the day. It might not sound glamorous, but on those days, that was my version of survival and winning.

John Liddle:

That’s truly incredible. You know, on this show, we often emphasize that it’s not about where you are; it’s about where you’re going. Many of us have these grand visions for our lives, whether it’s something seemingly self-centered like early retirement or achieving a specific personal goal. There’s nothing inherently wrong with these ambitions; we’re just drawn to the idea of pursuing something significant. However, sometimes it seems like we get so caught up in where we’re going that we overlook the importance of the present moment. Your journey has shown us that it’s all about today, about being the best we can be right now. Your lessons are invaluable, and they remind us that life isn’t just about trying not to die; it’s about truly living. You’re living proof of this, and you’re making a positive impact on people. Could you share how this transformation unfolded for you? When did you shift from merely trying to survive to truly living and influencing others along the way?

Terry Tucker:

Yeah. That that’s that’s a great question. It’s fascinating to reflect on this journey because I didn’t initially have any grand visions of turning it into something positive. But, you see, curiosity has always been a part of who I am, and I’ve maintained a desire to be a lifelong learner – something I believe we should all aspire to. In fact, I think we should aim to pass away while still learning. Being a curious individual led me to wonder about the purpose behind my experiences, especially during moments of adversity. From my battle with cancer, I’ve gleaned some absolute truths. Firstly, I’ve come to understand that you don’t truly comprehend your own self, your depths, until you’ve been tested by some form of adversity in life. Secondly, cancer has transformed me into a better human being. It’s allowed me to place greater value on the most important aspects of life: my relationship with God, my family, and my friends. I often talk about a common misconception in life – the idea that we’re born empty and our mission is to fill ourselves up as we journey through school, jobs, wealth accumulation, material possessions, and personal accomplishments. It’s like we’re striving to become whole and happy through external acquisitions. However, I’ve come to a different realization: we’re not born empty. We arrive in this world full, equipped with everything we need to be successful, and it’s already inside us. Our task is to discover, extract, and employ these innate gifts and talents for our own benefit, but also for the benefit of our loved ones and our community. So, it’s not about what we acquire but what we contribute. Our mission should be to empty ourselves, sharing our unique gifts and talents. This brings true fulfillment. Now, I must emphasize that I’m not making money from these endeavors. I haven’t worked for over a decade, and I’ve appeared on over 600 podcasts without ever receiving a dime. I even lost money when I wrote my book, but I felt compelled to do it. People would often suggest, “Terry, you should write a book.” At first, I brushed it off, thinking, “Who am I to write a book? I’m just a former athlete.” However, as more and more individuals voiced this idea, it became harder to ignore. There’s a saying that when we talk to God, it’s called prayer, but when God talks to us, it’s seen as schizophrenia. I’ve never heard God directly tell me, “Terry, write a book,” but I believe He guided people into my life who collectively delivered that message to me. Ultimately, I had a choice – I could have refused. I could have said, “No, God, I want to do my own thing.” However, I recognized the significance of these signs and felt inspired by a force much larger than myself while writing my book.

John Liddle:

That’s so good. So good. Terry, I’ve got to go back to the concept that you know, we’re not trying to fill ourselves up as we go along. Well, some of us are. And me included. I’ve been guilty of that, I think. We’re we’re supposed to give it away. We’ve got everything we need and we wanna give it away. I go back to a conversation that I had with a really good friend of mine. I was going through a tough mental period, and she was like, “John, the the problem is that you think there’s something wrong with you.” And I’m still kind of working through this, Terry, and maybe it’s, our awakening to more mental health stuff. We want good mental health. I’m not speaking against having good mental health, but awakening to this deficit we’ve got here, and we had this trauma from our past and this awful thing that we’ve got to get through, and we think we’ve got to fix all this stuff in order to be worthy to give something away to people. And I am speaking to myself right now. That is just not the case. And and I know you would agree.

Terry Tucker:

Oh, I I have absolutely agree. It seems like we want everything lined up. I remember hearing, Jesse Itzler who used to be the, the owner of the Atlanta Hawks, the National Basketball Association. He’s married to Sarah Blakely, and Sarah Blakely, started a company called Spanks. Itzler was talking about when she started that company. He said if she would have waited until everything was perfect until she had all the financing and all the marketing and all the distribution and all the manufacturing in place…he said, “I guarantee you somebody else would have come up with that that idea and and run with it.” There’s nothing you can do about the past other than to learn from it. You can beat yourself up. I mean, I’m Catholic. We own guilt. I mean, we we own it. There’s nothing I can do about the things that I’ve done in the past that were selfish than other people other than learn from them. But I can start from today and make changes in my life the way I want those things to be and move forward. And and I think that’s really where we are. Victor Frankl, the concentration camp survivor during World War 2 went on to be a psychologist…he said we have a moral obligation to find our purpose in life and live it. And I I think where he missed the boat on that here, I’m I’m just nobody. This guy is like very famous. I think where I missed the point on that is “find our purpose.” Purpose isn’t singular, and I I don’t think that’s the case. I look back on my life and say, Okay. When I was young, I felt my purpose was athletics to play sports. And then as an adult to be in law enforcement, that was another purpose. And now you know, all honesty is I’m probably coming towards the end of my life. My purpose has changed again to put as much goodness, positivity, love, motivation, back into the world. So I think your purpose can change over life. You can have multiple purposes. And the last thing I’ll say about this is It would be great if our purpose aligned with our job or our occupation, but it doesn’t have to. Your job can be over here. It’s what you do to pay the bills. But your purpose is to be a podcast host, to be a writer, to be an activist, whatever it is you feel in your heart. And I always I always say this, especially when I talk to young people. There’s something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you’re supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it, because at the end of your life, the things you’re going to regret, are not gonna be the things you did. There’s gonna be things you didn’t do, but then it’s gonna be too late to go back and do.

John Liddle:

So lean into that. Lean into it. That’s really challenging me. And, I’m gonna be thinking about that for the rest of the week. I really appreciate that. YI don’t think you have any problem with this. I am gonna call myself out and say, I’ve got an issue with it. So I just I need I’m gonna pull up a chair and I’m gonna ask Terry for some advice here. I really do want to put good into the world. Exactly like you’re saying. That definitely is something that I want to do. But how do I know when I’m truly doing it for other people? Or if I’m doing it for me to be like, “Hey! Look over here! I want significance!” I want to help. How do I check my heart on that? How do I make sure that my heart’s in the right space?

Terry Tucker:

That’s a great question. I would certainly say pray about it. I mean, every morning when I get out of bed, I always hand my life over to Jesus. You know, Jesus, you you take care of it. And the other thing I ask is you show me where you want me to go today. Not not 10 years from now, not 5. I don’t even know if I’ll be here 10 years or now or 5 years from now. But what do you want me to do today? To better people, to better your cause and things like that. And that’s how I start my day before even with my feet…sorry I only have one foot. Well, my foot hits the floor. You know?

John Liddle:

(laughs) You’ve been sitting on that one!

Terry Tucker:

An amputation joke. So it’s like before my foot hits the floor, I’m asking for help. Because I know as an individual, I am weak. And and yes, I’m I’m certainly at a point where like you and like any of us, we wanna be we wanna be successful in life. We want people to say, “Look at Terry or look at John and things like that.” But it’s not about that. I mean, in 50 years from now, a 100 years nobody’s gonna even know we were here, and that’s okay. That’s okay. So I I guess I would I would start with that, and then I would say, just be yourself. Be authentic. Don’t try to put on airs. Because people can sense that. They can sense when you’re faking it and it’s like, you and I were talking before we jumped on, and it’s like, I always feel that anything I say on a podcast is something that I can also walk that walk. Because if I can’t, if I don’t know anything about it and I’m just out there (faking) it, people are gonna say, “Terry, don’t know what he’s talking about.” So be authentic, be genuine, and if you want to make a difference in people’s lives, I don’t think there’s any magic formula. What’s in your heart, follow that. We always we have to keep an open mind. Keep an open heart. Keep an open heart that you wanna give peace and love and goodness to other people. And if you do that, I don’t think you can go wrong.

John Liddle:

I love that. I love that. I really appreciate it. You just have been for 11 years in a physical sickness going through cancer. Others of us have battled depression or anxiety, a mental sickness. And we know the lives that it can take. And so even if you don’t have cancer right now or even if you don’t have a terminal illness, so to speak, I still want you to listen up because I think that Terry’s got a lot for us. Terry, you’ve got these 4 truths….focusing on the healthy aspects of being sick, and I’d love for you to take us through those because I know we can all pick up something from you.

Terry Tucker:

So the the 4 truths, you know, I call them my 4 truths. I mean, they’re not mine. I don’t own them. I don’t have a copywrite or anything like that. I think truths are are timeless. They’re eternal. They’re not something that somebody can possess, but these are things that I’ve come to understand over these last 11 years. I have them on a Post It note here in my office so I could see them multiple times during the day and then constantly get reinforced in my mind, and they’re only one sentence each. So the first one is this: Control your mind or your mind is going to control you. The second one is: embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experience in life and use that pain and difficulty to make you stronger and more resilient. The third one I look at kind of as a, I guess, a legacy type of truth and it’s this: What you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And the fourth one, I think, is pretty self explanatory: As long as you don’t quit, you can never be defeated. And I I look at those 4 truths, and I call them a lot of times sort of the bedrock of my soul. I think they’re just a good place to try to start to build a quality life off of.

John Liddle:

I love that. Were you always able to control your mind so it didn’t control you? Especially when I think back to early in your cancer fight, especially when you’re going through those weekly battles with these flu like symptoms and it like you said earlier, you’re just like, “God, I I’m good. You can just take me.” How did you grow in that over time?

Terry Tucker:

It’s been quite a compilation of experiences throughout my life. Back in high school, I underwent three knee surgeries, and I distinctly recall the mental challenge I faced when returning to basketball after those surgeries. My mind was flooded with negative thoughts, telling me I might be a step slower, and college coaches might lose interest in recruiting me. However, I quickly realized the importance of taking charge of the narrative within my own mind. We all engage in self-talk, whether we acknowledge it or not. I knew early on that I needed to exert control over that inner dialogue. During my college years at The Citadel, a military college in South Carolina, we had a president named James Stockdale. For those who might recall, Admiral Stockdale was Ross Perot’s running mate during Ross Perot’s presidential campaign. What’s truly remarkable about Stockdale is his experience as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam conflict. He endured eight years of torture and abuse, ultimately earning our nation’s highest military honor, the Medal of Honor. I had limited interactions with Admiral Stockdale since I was a cadet and he was the school’s president, but I vividly remember an event where someone asked him about survival during those brutal years. His response was enlightening. He explained that survival didn’t favor the big, tough individuals who believed they could endure any form of torture. Surprisingly, he noted that the optimists were also among those who didn’t make it. These were individuals who held onto hope that they would be rescued or released by certain holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Easter. Yet, when these holidays passed without their freedom, they succumbed to broken spirits.Admiral Stockdale revealed that those who did survive were the ones who grasped what they could control. According to him, this included the thoughts in their minds and the breath in their lungs. Everything else was at the mercy of the enemy, beyond their control. I think this principle resonates with many of us today. We often try to exert control over aspects of our lives that lie outside our sphere of influence, resulting in mental distress, anxiety, and frustration. It’s a valuable reminder to identify what we can control and focus our efforts there, letting go of the rest.

John Liddle:

hat’s amazing. Embracing the pain. We hear a lot of people say that, you know, especially young people these days, but probably all of us, you know, we’re weak in a way. I was just talking about in the embracing emotional pain with somebody today and how, God can grow us through that when we don’t lean away from it when we lean into it. What have you learned about embracing pain?

Terry Tucker:

Absolutely, our brains are wired to instinctively avoid pain and discomfort while seeking pleasure. It’s a fundamental aspect of human nature. However, the challenge lies in the fact that growth, improvement, and development often require us to venture outside our comfort zones and embrace discomfort. During my time coaching high school basketball, I frequently emphasized this concept to my players, encouraging them to become comfortable with being uncomfortable. So, how do we cultivate this comfort with discomfort in our lives? The answer is by consistently engaging in activities that make us uneasy, nervous, or even embarrassed. It doesn’t have to be something monumental; even small, daily challenges can suffice. By doing this, we build resilience, which becomes invaluable when life inevitably throws major challenges our way, as it does for everyone. These challenges could range from the loss of a loved one to job loss or receiving a diagnosis of chronic or terminal illness. When we’ve conditioned ourselves to tackle discomfort regularly, we’re better prepared to handle the pain and adversity that life presents. But the truth is, many people shy away from such discomfort. They’d rather not clean the house, study for an upcoming test, or wake up early to hit the gym. However, it’s precisely these daily opportunities for discomfort that condition our minds for larger challenges. To illustrate this point, I’ll share a quote from Shirley Babashoff, a gold medal-winning Olympic swimmer from the 1976 United States Bicentennial celebration. Her simple yet profound statement goes like this: “Winners think about what they want to happen; losers think about what they don’t want to have.” Winners can overcome the negative thoughts and biases in their minds to focus on their desired outcomes, while losers are often consumed by their fears and anxieties, hindering their pursuit of goals and dreams. In essence, many people remain stagnant in life because they are fixated on complaining about their current circumstances rather than taking responsibility for their own success and happiness.

John Liddle:

Let’s dig into that a little bit. So we’re supposed to take personal responsibility for our own success and happines?. I thought it was all about, you know, kinda luck of the draw. If I win the lottery or if you know, my persons in the White House. I thought that’s the stuff that determined my success and happiness.

Terry Tucker:

No, I don’t believe so. Allowing others to determine your emotional state essentially means that you’re granting them free real estate in your mind. This is especially significant with young people who can be particularly impressionable. I recently came across an excellent book titled “Do Hard Things” by Steve Magnus. He was previously the track and field coach at the University of Minnesota and shared an intriguing study in his book. In this study, participants, mostly young individuals, were placed in a room containing only a table, a chair, and a buzzer. They were instructed to leave their devices outside, sit at the table, and were informed that pressing the buzzer would deliver an electric shock. Astonishingly, 68% of the men and 25% of the women went ahead and shocked themselves. One man even shocked himself every 5 seconds on average. This study underscores the importance of being comfortable with oneself. To truly be content in life, you must find comfort within yourself and not allow external factors or other people to dictate your happiness. A simple practice that can help with this is spending 5 to 10 minutes alone with your thoughts each day. This isn’t meditation or prayer; it’s merely allowing your mind to wander freely. It’s perfectly fine to do this without any electronic devices. Often, we let the opinions or comments of others, like Sally criticizing your appearance or choices, occupy unnecessary space in our minds. But why should you allow someone like Sally to rent space in your head? Ultimately, your happiness should be self-determined and independent of external influences.

John Liddle:

So, so good. If we were talking to my kids right now, “Why are you letting your sister rent space in your brain right now?” I want to know what the difference between weaving something in the hearts of other people or just kind of throwing goodness at people that doesn’t really stick. What’s the difference between that? Because I see a lot of people throwing positivity into the world and maybe I’m one of those people sometimes that, like we were saying earlier, maybe it rings a little bit hollow. What’s the difference between just trying to throw good out there? I mean, again, no bad intentions with it. Trying to throw good and then weaving something into somebody’s heart to leave behind.

Terry Tucker:

That’s a that’s an amazing question. I will answer it with one word, and then I’ll tell you a story. I’m gonna say the one word is service. So most of us know who mister Rogers was, who Fred Rogers was. So many people grew up with them including myself on public television on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. When Fred Rogers died in 2003, his family was going through his personal effects and they found his wallet. And inside his wallet was a scrap piece of paper on which Mr. Rogers had written four simple words: “LIFE IS FOR SERVICE.” So I think if your goal in life is to serve other individuals, that’s a big difference between some platitude that you just throw out at somebody without any meaning behind it. I don’t wanna talk the talk if I can’t walk the walk. So if I can bring goodness, if I can bring positivity, if I can bring motivation, I can bring love into your world in a service capacity. I don’t want anything back from you. You don’t need to give me anything. I just wanna do it for you. So I I guess a long winded answer to your question is I wanna be able to serve other people.

John Liddle:

I don’t think that’s long winded at all. You haven’t quit. I think about and I’m sure there are stages of it, my friend, where you know, if they told you off the bat that, you know, you’re gonna go through 11 years and here’s how it’s all gonna go and it’s gonna be really trying and hard. And here’s the totality of the pain that you’re going to go through. Hey. Maybe in a weak moment, you might have wanted to raise the white flag. But God gave it to you in doses that you could could tolerate with His help at the time to take you into a new place with Him and now you are here 11 years later. Remembering that as long as you don’t quit, you can never be defeated. Obviously, there was a time where you wanted to quit. What kept you from quitting?

Terry Tucker:

Every time I go to treatment, My wife will tell you, sometime during that Sunday before I start, you know, 4 o’clock Monday morning, I’ll be like, “I don’t wanna do this. I don’t wanna do this.” I think a lot of things, certainly my faith, but I think it’s something that goes back to when I was a kid. You know, I started playing basketball and I was nine years old and played all the way up until I was twenty one when I graduated from college. And I think what team sports taught me. And I think for me, it was sports. I think it’d be whatever team you’re part of, your family, your colleagues, or whatever it is…is the importance of being part of something that’s bigger than yourself. You realize on a team that if you don’t do your job, not only do you let yourself down, but you let your teammates down, your coaches down, your fans down, etc. And if you think about it, the biggest team game that we all play is this game of life. And I am on a I’m on a clinical trial drug now that more than likely is not going to save my life. It’s kept my tumor stable, but the way I look at it is, and the reason I keep going to treatment is that maybe five years from now, maybe 10 years from now somebody’s life will be saved based on the data that the doctors are gleaning from my blood tests and my scans and things like that. And to me, that’s being part of something that’s bigger than yourself. I mean, my nurse is asking me all the time. “Why do you keep doing this? Why do you keep coming here every day for a whole week take this drug, throw up violently, shake like crazy, have a bad headache. Why do you do this?” And I always tell her “It’s bigger than me. This isn’t just about me.” If it were about me, I would have quit a long time ago because I am I’m weak. I am absolutely positively weak there are days when I have those reactions where I where I cry, where I get down, where I feel sorry for myself. But the other part of this is is hope, and and I’ll I’ll tell you a story. Back in the 1950s, there was a doctor or a professor at Johns Hopkins University. He did a very simple experiment with rats. Took rats, and he put them in a tank of water that was over their head. And he wanted to see how long the average rat could tread water. Initially, the average rat treaded water for about 15 minutes. And just as those rats were getting ready to sink and drown, he reached in, grabbed them, pulled them out, dried them off, and let them rest for and then he took the exact same rats and he put them back in that exact same tank of water. And the second time around those rats treaded water on average for 60 hours. Think about that. The first time 15 minutes. I’m just not gonna fail. My business is gonna go under. No. I’m gonna die. My life is gonna be over. Second time, 60 hours, which said to me 2 things. Number 1, the importance of hope in our lives. Maybe not today, maybe not this month, maybe not even this year. But if you keep doing the things you know in your heart you’re supposed to do, eventually you’ll get to that place. That’s how you define success. And the second thing it taught me was just how much more our physical bodies can handle than we ever thought they could. I’ve got a friend who’s a Navy Seal. He calls me on my off days of treatment, And and we talk about, you know, the seals have what they call the 40% rule, which basically says that if you’re done, if you’re at the end of your rope, if you can’t go on, you’re only at 40% of your max, and you still have another 60% left in reserve to give to yourself. So the next time, we just don’t wanna go to the gym. You don’t wanna clean the house. You don’t wanna study for that test. Remember, you’ve got 60% left in reserve to give it to yourself.

John Liddle:

Oh my gosh. How motivating is that? How great is that? And not only that, we’ve got people in our lives we can rely on too. You talked about your friend who’s a Navy Seal is trying to encourage you. You’ve got family. You’ve got most importantly, God as well. And and I hope that everybody listening or watching has that group of people around you and that you believe in something bigger than yourself so you know that you’ve got reserves. But how how important have those relationships been when you’ve wanted to quit to help you keep going to give you some of their reserve so you do feel like you can keep going?

Terry Tucker:

I wouldn’t be here without them. I owe my presence here to three pillars in my life, what I like to call my “3 F’s”: Faith, family, and friends. It all begins with faith in God. When people learned about my battle with cancer, some questioned who I might blame for my condition. To me, blame was misplaced; I didn’t hold God responsible. I don’t believe that God woke up on a Tuesday morning, consulted His to-do list, and thought, “Today, Terry Tucker gets cancer.” Instead, I believe that God has granted me strength during my weakest moments, when despair would whisper, “I can’t do this anymore,” encouraging me to keep moving forward. Then there’s family. My immediate family consists of my wife and daughter, along with my living brothers and mother. After the amputation of my leg, my doctor proposed chemotherapy for the lung tumors. At that point, I was eight years into my battle. I questioned whether it would save my life or merely prolong my suffering. I discussed it with my family, my wife, and daughter. We gathered around the kitchen table, each expressing our thoughts and feelings about my potential chemotherapy. When my daughter called for a vote, both she and my wife raised their hands in favor of the treatment, outnumbering me. I couldn’t help but recall a lesson from my police academy days, where our instructor encouraged us to keep a picture of our loved ones in mind while learning self-defense techniques, emphasizing that we often fight harder for those we love than for ourselves. So I embarked on chemotherapy not for my sake, but out of my love for my wife and daughter. Looking back, it became the bridge to the medication I’m currently on. Lastly, there are friends. It was interesting to note that the people I initially expected to stand with me in the trenches, unwavering in their support, often couldn’t bear the sight of my struggle. They couldn’t confront the reality because they saw themselves reflected in my ordeal. On the other hand, some individuals I never anticipated would be there for me became my unwavering companions throughout these past 11 years. In this journey, faith, family, and friends have been my bedrock, and without them I wouldn’t be where I am today.

John Liddle:

What an incredible last hour this has been. And there are so many of these stories and podcast appearances and just nuggets of incredible wisdom at motivationalcheck.com. What do you try to do with motivationalcheck.com, my friend?

Terry Tucker:

Basically put as much goodness positivity, motivation, love out into the world. I put a thought for the day up every day with that thought comes up usually a question about how maybe you could apply it in your life. On Mondays, I put up the Monday morning motivational message. I have recommendations for books to read, videos to watch. You can leave me a message. All of that motivationalcheck.com.

John Liddle:

We all need a motivational check. That’s for sure. I need that. And I know the last hour has been that for me, and I I know it has been, for those, partaking in the show today. Thank you so much, Terry, for giving us an incredibly valuable hour of your time. I really appreciate it.

Terry Tucker:

Well, John, thanks for having me on. I I really enjoy talking with you today. Thank you.